featured! Who Was The Bigger POP Culture Icon In 2003? Britney or JLO?

[RadicalOptimism]

4 minutes ago, puppylo16 said:

It sounds so conspiracy like but to hear people saying he was willing to pluck Ja Rule from his tour, fly him over night on a private jet just so he can appear on Jlo’s video and hiring people to spy on Mariah, omg what a lunatic, no wonder she bonded with Britney.

Mariah was also dealing with her Glitter era and personal issues. They weren’t ready for her emancipation era 

[PokemonSpears]

11 minutes ago, Roxxy said:

You didn't know Jenny was latina, Pokie? 

And omg are you upset with me and Diggy over the J.Lo Vanguard discussion. 

I'm still waiting for that list of videos from Pink and Jlo

Or why are you so sure that Xtina only has 4 worthy videos, but none of her other videos qualify , like, who made the rules? or where do you see a measurable mark to say "see, this and that video had an impact but this and that didn't"

[RadicalOptimism]

4 minutes ago, Arianna said:

I was a stan then. Britney was EVERYWHERE. No competition.

Yasss a stan from the beginning? The moment my 7 year old self saw her I fell in love. I didn’t stan, stan until Crazy came out. Something about that video and her Sabrina appearance just took me to the next level. And it’s such an iconic song that’s why it’s my stan song 

[RadicalOptimism]

5 minutes ago, BritneySpurs said:

Britney didn't do much in 2003 other than The Kiss and MATM/releasing ITZ (but only the one single). MATM peaked at #35 in the US.

Bennifer got a ton of press in 2003. Gigli became a sensation bc it flopped so hard. But the song All I Have was a #1 hit that year.

Britney was always bigger than JLo back in those days but JLo had a pretty iconic year in 2003.

I totally understand and agree to an extent. She did have a memorable 2003 year, but it wasn’t fair to rank her higher than Britney over that year. I would’ve been fine if they had switched the 15 and 20 spots 

[RadicalOptimism]

2 minutes ago, PokemonSpears said:

I'm still waiting for that list of videos from Pink and Jlo

Or why are you so sure that Xtina only has 4 worthy videos, but none of her other videos qualify , like, who made the rules? or where do you see a measurable mark to say "see, this and that video had an impact but this and that didn't"

Wait who said Christina only had four worthy videos? @Roxxy you said that? 

[Britneyarmy8]

27 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

Where do you live? Jlo sung some of her biggest hits that almost everyone has at least heard once in their life. If it’s outside the US I guess I understand since Shakira is more of a global icon 

i live in massachusetts U.S lol i was surprised too cause i have two much older sisters so i knew jenny from the block and lets get loud and on the floor and some others from childhood but they barely knew any

i was glad they knew shakiras tho

 

[PokemonSpears]

19 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

I do get it though. I used to think she was born in Puerto Rico and relocated to the USA as a kid 

And another thing about Jlo and the Latin community, is that she's been very absent, I don't know how to say it. Like, has she ever come to Latin America?

All I remember from her is a sketch she did with Adal Ramones back in the day (where she made it very clear English was her first language but she could understand some Spanish) but that's it. I feel, or that was my perception growing up, that she was more like a Hollywood actress that sang, than a Latina singer like Shakira, who was much more present here in Mexico and other Latin countries, at least at the beginning of her career, and had multiple hits in Spanish. Like, I would never put Jlo in the same basket as Shakira, Ricky Martin, Enrique Iglesias, etc.

Even Britney and Christina did more promotion in here or were interviewed more often than JLo. For example, in MTV LA, she didn't even appear in the 2000 Top 100, and in 2001 her highest position was 50 with Love Don't Cost a Thing. I mean, A*Teens, Westlife and even Crazy Town landed much higher than that lol

Jenny from the Block, Get Right, etc, were more known and such, but they were just like cool songs but nothing out of this world. So yeah, I would say it wasn't until On the Floor that people realized, here in Latin America, that she was this huge force in music, and I'm not sure if it was just because of her alone or because she was collaborating with Pitbull, who was very famous at the time And only after that is when I started to see more people in the media calling her a "Latin artist" and I was like  

[RadicalOptimism]

6 minutes ago, PokemonSpears said:

And another thing about Jlo and the Latin community, is that she's been very absent, I don't know how to say it. Like, has she ever come to Latin America?

All I remember from her is a sketch she did with Adal Ramones back in the day (where she made it very clear English was her first language but she could understand some Spanish) but that's it. I feel, or that was my perception growing up, that she was more like a Hollywood actress that sang, than a Latina singer like Shakira, who was much more present here in Mexico and other Latin countries, at least at the beginning of her career, and had multiple hits in Spanish. Like, I would never put Jlo in the same basket as Shakira, Ricky Martin, Enrique Iglesias, etc.

Even Britney and Christina did more promotion in here or were interviewed more often than JLo. For example, in MTV LA, she didn't even appear in the 2000 Top 100, and in 2001 her highest position was 50 with Love Don't Cost a Thing. I mean, A*Teens, Westlife and even Crazy Town landed much higher than that lol

Jenny from the Block, Get Right, etc, were more known and such, but they were just like cool songs but nothing out of this world. So yeah, I would say it wasn't until On the Floor that people realized, here in Latin America, that she was this huge force in music, and I'm not sure if it was just because of her alone or because she was collaborating with Pitbull, who was very famous at the time And only after that is when I started to see more people in the media calling her a "Latin artist" and I was like  

I loved this reply because you made very valid points. I think because I was born in the US and my mom was also raised here that I just related to her as someone from the Latin community. As you said though, just because she’s Latina doesn’t mean that she necessarily embraced or represented that side as much. It took me a while to realize the impact American artists had on the rest of the world growing up. Living here and being surrounded by American media there are American artists I just assumed were big everywhere just because they were big here. I do think what changed was her split from Ben Affleck and romantic relationship with Marc Anthony. She ended up recording more Spanish songs, but I still can’t get over the fact that Christina released a Spanish album first. I do think it was weird they made her record a Spanish album just because her estranged father was Argentinian. 

[RadicalOptimism]

19 minutes ago, Britneyarmy8 said:

i live in massachusetts U.S lol i was surprised too cause i have two much older sisters so i knew jenny from the block and lets get loud and on the floor and some others from childhood but they barely knew any

i was glad they knew shakiras tho

 

At least they have some taste, lol. I would be surprised if they didn’t know any of them but taste at them knowing Shakira 

[DignifiedLove]

25 minutes ago, PokemonSpears said:

I'm still waiting for that list of videos from Pink and Jlo

Or why are you so sure that Xtina only has 4 worthy videos, but none of her other videos qualify , like, who made the rules? or where do you see a measurable mark to say "see, this and that video had an impact but this and that didn't"

And I'm still waiting for a response back that you let go over your head and didn't respond to  

tea was too boiling hot huh?

[PokemonSpears]

38 minutes ago, DignifiedLove said:

And I'm still waiting for a response back that you let go over your head and didn't respond to  

tea was too boiling hot huh?

I did start writing a response, but I got tired of you two just stating as a fact how big Pink and Jlo were, without clear, specific and concrete examples, and you telling me one thing and Roxxy another, so I figured out you two would never get out of the same circle.

All I tried to say is that being an icon or making an impact in culture is such a subjective thing but you were talking as if it wasn't and were actually clear evidence to determine who deserved and award like the Video Vanguard Award and who didn't.

I said it was an arbitrary thing so anyone could be a potential recipient of the award at this point, and you told me it wasn't. Then you proceeded to tell me that each artist that has gotten it was because they had a major thing to promote, even stating that it would've made sense for Christina to get it when she released Liberation. So what were you trying to say then, that she deserved the Vanguard Award in 2018, but she doesn't in 2020? Or that if Beyoncé had nothing to promote in 2014, the award should've gone to anyone else despite Beyoncé being the obvious choice in this sort of magical chart of impact that only you and Roxxy know about? Or that Eminem has had nothing to promote these past 10 years?

 

As I said, I'm not saying the other artists don't deserve the award, but what I still don't understand is why Christina doesn't. If it's just about the music videos, and Roxxy has a very specific list of just 4 videos of Christina that had an impact or whatever, I wanna know why do you say that such a few Christina videos are worthy of the award, and none of her other videos make the list, like, based on what? What are those standards or marks and where are you measuring them to say such a thing, and most importantly, based on those same standards, what's the list of videos, according to you,  from Pink, JLo, Missy Elliot, Kanye West, Beyoncé, even Britney (because we know that not all of Britney videos were impactful) that made them recipients of the award.

And even if you come up with a list, and it's bigger than Christina's, ok, they already got the award. So which other artists that still don't have the award are more deserving than Christina, based on the same standards.

It's that simple, that's all I want to know to understand and be able to see what you see and I don't.

[PokemonSpears]

45 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

Living here and being surrounded by American media there are American artists I just assumed were big everywhere just because they were big here

And that's very true to some extent. United States is really THAT influential around the world, not only in politics or economy, but also in culture. From music, to videogames, movies, tv shows, sports, etc, I think anyone that wants to be famous around the world knows they have to make it big in the States first. Like these Latin artists, Enrique Iglesias, Ricky Martin, Shakira, they did become very popular when they first came to Mexico with their first albums, but it was just a trampoline, because it wasn't until they made it big in the US that they reached this global recognition.

And I think it makes sense that the US being on top of everything, they just don't "look down" to other countries' cultures. What I mean is here in Mexico, in Latin America, and in many places around the world, we consume American music, and we adopt these American idols (no pun intended) but Americans don't consume nor adopt the music or idols from other countries, especially if it's another language. It's like, why would they? Though I feel that due to that mentality they have missed on a lot of awesome artists from around the world, and I'm in a similar situation in the sense that I don't know a lot of Asian music or European music or artists.

But I think it comes to a point where it's unfair to just keep ignoring what happens outside of the US. Because yeah, the US gives us (us = the rest of the world) this catalog of artists and music to choose from. But the acceptance or the impact that each of these artists makes on each country, is very different, and in most cases is not proportionally related to how big they are within the US. Britney Spears being the biggest example, she was just massive, like no other from her generation. So when people try to compare Taylor Swift or Ariana Grande to Britney, I'm like, they just have no idea what they're talking about. I think Taylor Swift is now very famous, but it took her many albums to reach that point. And I remember YEARS ago reading people say Taylor was already as big or bigger than Britney, when just a few songs of hers were barely famous outside the US, and that she herself, as an artist, as a person, was basically unknown. I mean, Britney was known by people that didn't even like her, people from all ages could recognize her or her videos, since the very beginning. I'm still yet to see someone else reaching that same level of popularity.

And it's the same with other artists that are very popular in the US, like Mariah Carey, when she's more known for being one of Luis Miguel's ex girlfriends in Latin America than for her music or her talent.

So I consider, and that's my opinion, that is most admirable when an artist is able to do a huge impact in more places other than the US, or whatever country they're from. I mean, it's logical, it's bigger, it's better to be able to make an impact in multiple countries, multiple cultures, in people that don't even speak the same language, than just manage to be popular in one country.

[DignifiedLove]

54 minutes ago, PokemonSpears said:

I did start writing a response, but I got tired of you two just stating as a fact how big Pink and Jlo were, without clear, specific and concrete examples, and you telling me one thing and Roxxy another, so I figured out you two would never get out of the same circle.

All I tried to say is that being an icon or making an impact in culture is such a subjective thing but you were talking as if it wasn't and were actually clear evidence to determine who deserved and award like the Video Vanguard Award and who didn't.

I said it was an arbitrary thing so anyone could be a potential recipient of the award at this point, and you told me it wasn't. Then you proceeded to tell me that each artist that has gotten it was because they had a major thing to promote, even stating that it would've made sense for Christina to get it when she released Liberation. So what were you trying to say then, that she deserved the Vanguard Award in 2018, but she doesn't in 2020? Or that if Beyoncé had nothing to promote in 2014, the award should've gone to anyone else despite Beyoncé being the obvious choice in this sort of magical chart of impact that only you and Roxxy know about? Or that Eminem has had nothing to promote these past 10 years?

 

As I said, I'm not saying the other artists don't deserve the award, but what I still don't understand is why Christina doesn't. If it's just about the music videos, and Roxxy has a very specific list of just 4 videos of Christina that had an impact or whatever, I wanna know why do you say that such a few Christina videos are worthy of the award, and none of her other videos make the list, like, based on what? What are those standards or marks and where are you measuring them to say such a thing, and most importantly, based on those same standards, what's the list of videos, according to you,  from Pink, JLo, Missy Elliot, Kanye West, Beyoncé, even Britney (because we know that not all of Britney videos were impactful) that made them recipients of the award.

And even if you come up with a list, and it's bigger than Christina's, ok, they already got the award. So which other artists that still don't have the award are more deserving than Christina, based on the same standards.

It's that simple, that's all I want to know to understand and be able to see what you see and I don't.

Yes because relevance, likability, longevity and being able to stand the test of time ALSO play a major role as to who receives the award. It's marketing 101 and how the industry works. For example, let's look at Busta Rhymes - who did a lot for the hip-hop scene and changed the music video game by working collaboratively with Hype to produce eclectic, award winning productions. Others that come to mind - OutKast, 50 Cent, Ludacris, even Chris Brown. I doubt anytime soon, any of these artists are going to receive a Video Vanguard Award because - guess what? They're going to go with the artists who are more relevant and/or had better longevity, and quite frankly, most of those artists are not very relevant or beloved today as much as the recipients who got the award from 2011 and on. 

That is not to say any of the artist who received the VVA from 2011 and on didn't deserve it. They are all icons who represented iconic imagery, videos and stage shows in some form or another for an entire generation.  Not to mention, most of, if not all are still major pop music names today. 

Again, you're confusing my words. Time is of the essence and that's the way the cut-throat industry works. I'm sure if Eminem didn't receive it then that he'll eventually receive it soon. It's really not that deep and you continue confusing yourself by over-speculating something that can be considered miniscule. I mean the systematic pattern of who has received the award from 2011 and forth is very obvious that the artist had something to promote, whether it was an album, single and/or a residency/tour. 

And like I said before:

There's different aspects of being a musical icon. Sure, someone like Pink may not have had the plethora of iconic imagery as Britney did, for example, but that's not to say her IMAGE, including her sound and entire package, wasn't influential during a time when crisp-clean, girl-next-door pop-stars were in. She even spoke (so eloquently btw) about it in her speech. JLo's imagery, for example, paved the way for so many aspiring Latin artists. I mean, not even Xtina was as famous as JLo was in the early 2000s. She was literally rivaling with Britney on a global interest scale. 

I mean, look at Mariah and Whitney for example. They are two of the most massive names in music history during the peak of MTV, yet they weren't really ever known for the imagery or music videos and therefore never received the award. Britney on the other hand relied heavily on imagery and music video dance, simple as that. The formula that propelled MJ to superstardom. That's not to say other hard-working artists in the industry didn't deserve any recognition either. All the Vanguard recipients, literally worked their a.sses off when it came to their music, videos, stage shows and imagery.

It's what makes pop culture so amazing because where one is lacking, another will fill in that void and almost always, there is room for everyone to fill in a void. Not everyone has to be 'Britney Spears' or 'Madonna' to receive a Vanguard Award and the fact that you're even insinuating that is literally foolish of you.

To end, I believe Christina deserves this award. I never stated she didn't but again, if there is anyone worthy of being the next recipient - it's definitely Eminem over her. If the VMAs doesn't get cancelled this year, I can also see Lady Gaga being the next recipient and she most likely will receive it since she is (or was) in the midst of releasing a new album.  

Is this case closed?

[Arianna]

2 hours ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

Yasss a stan from the beginning? The moment my 7 year old self saw her I fell in love. I didn’t stan, stan until Crazy came out. Something about that video and her Sabrina appearance just took me to the next level. And it’s such an iconic song that’s why it’s my stan song 

Yasss BOMT baby. I was also 7! 

[PokemonSpears]

16 minutes ago, DignifiedLove said:

Yes because relevance, likability, longevity and being able to stand the test of time ALSO play a major role as to who receives the award. It's marketing 101 and how the industry works. For example, let's look at Busta Rhymes - who did a lot for the hip-hop scene and changed the music video game by working collaboratively with Hype to produce eclectic, award winning productions. Others that come to mind - OutKast, 50 Cent, Ludacris, even Chris Brown. I doubt anytime soon, any of these artists are going to receive a Video Vanguard Award because - guess what? They're going to go with the artists who are more relevant and/or had better longevity, and quite frankly, most of those artists are not very relevant or beloved today as much as the recipients who got the award from 2011 and on. 

That is not to say any of the artist who received the VVA from 2011 and on didn't deserve it. They are all icons who represented iconic imagery, videos and stage shows in some form or another for an entire generation.  Not to mention, most of, if not all are still major pop music names today. 

Again, you're confusing my words. Time is of the essence and that's the way the cut-throat industry works. I'm sure if Eminem didn't receive it then that he'll eventually receive it soon. It's really not that deep and you continue confusing yourself by over-speculating something that can be considered miniscule. I mean the systematic pattern of who has received the award from 2011 and forth is very obvious that the artist had something to promote, whether it was an album, single and/or a residency/tour. 

And like I said before:

There's different aspects of being a musical icon. Sure, someone like Pink may not have had the plethora of iconic imagery as Britney did, for example, but that's not to say her IMAGE, including her sound and entire package, wasn't influential during a time when crisp-clean, girl-next-door pop-stars were in. She even spoke (so eloquently btw) about it in her speech. JLo's imagery, for example, paved the way for so many aspiring Latin artists. I mean, not even Xtina was as famous as JLo was in the early 2000s. She was literally rivaling with Britney on a global interest scale. 

I mean, look at Mariah and Whitney for example. They are two of the most massive names in music history during the peak of MTV, yet they weren't really ever known for the imagery or music videos and therefore never received the award. Britney on the other hand relied heavily on imagery and music video dance, simple as that. The formula that propelled MJ to superstardom. That's not to say other hard-working artists in the industry didn't deserve any recognition either. All the Vanguard recipients, literally worked their a.sses off when it came to their music, videos, stage shows and imagery.

It's what makes pop culture so amazing because where one is lacking, another will fill in that void and almost always, there is room for everyone to fill in a void. Not everyone has to be 'Britney Spears' or 'Madonna' to receive a Vanguard Award and the fact that you're even insinuating that is literally foolish of you.

To end, I believe Christina deserves this award. I never stated she didn't but again, if there is anyone worthy of being the next recipient - it's definitely Eminem over her. If the VMAs doesn't get cancelled this year, I can also see Lady Gaga being the next recipient and she most likely will receive it since she is (or was) in the midst of releasing a new album.  

Is this case closed?

Yeah it's closed, because I see you keep going to the same arguments, and I still don't see WHERE do you see all you say, and it's clear you'll never tell me. Like, ok, I believe you, but where do you see all of that if it's not sales, if it's not number of awards, if it's not views, if it's not followers, than what is it?

Pink was influential, but influenced who? In which way? With what "IMAGE" if it's not her videos?  And how come Christina didn't influence anything or anyone with her image as well?

[DignifiedLove]

42 minutes ago, PokemonSpears said:

Yeah it's closed, because I see you keep going to the same arguments, and I still don't see WHERE do you see all you say, and it's clear you'll never tell me. Like, ok, I believe you, but where do you see all of that if it's not sales, if it's not number of awards, if it's not views, if it's not followers, than what is it?

Pink was influential, but influenced who? In which way? With what "IMAGE" if it's not her videos?  And how come Christina didn't influence anything or anyone with her image as well?

Literally, what are you trying to argue? That why Christina never received the award back in the 10s yet others did instead? IDK, why does the sun rise? It's like you want to be quarrelsome on purpose for no rhyme or reason. I already explained to you in detailed context with implications that were probable/applied so go and figure it out yourself. Again, you're making a big deal out of nothing.

To end,

Look at Missy - she never had impressive sales yet she got the award.

Look at Britney - she didn't win a moonman until 10 years into her career yet she got the award. 

Again, I'm literally repeating myself like a broken record from the other thread.

As far as Pink, she has literally been credited for being the original bad girl of pop before it was a cliche thing to do and during a time when crisp-clean, girl-next-door pop-stars were in. She was literally the antidote to Britney, Christina, Jessica, Mandy and all those other pop acts who debuted around the same time. Her videos were very intricate, incorporated diversity, humor, dance, and showcased a lot of angst that many pop acts, Christina included, took note of. Christina's Stripped era was literally molded out of Missundaztood and its emotional rawness. Yes, Pink may have not been as 'popular' as Britney, JLO, Christina, Shakira, Avril etc. were during the 2000s but her influence was prominent. She was ultimately the underdog and proved that you don't have to necessarily be a sell-out in order to gain recognition. 

Oh and since you're so wrapped up on videos  she has a knockout videography which includes Most Girls, There You Go, You Make Me Sick, Get The Party Started, Don't Let Me Get Me, Family Portrait, Just Like A Pill, Lady M, Stupid Girls, So What, etc. Not to mention, she is a skilled live performer. And I'm not even a fan, just acknowledging her legacy but clearly, you seem to be too biased to even grasp that. 

Anything else you want to argue?

[jordeezy river red]

2003... I guess Avril woulda been dat bish tbh

[RadicalOptimism]

1 hour ago, jordeezy said:

2003... I guess Avril woulda been dat bish tbh

Not you ignoring the topic 

[icybaby]

As much as i love Jlo but i can't name her pop icon. She can be any other icon but her music wasn't pure pop. It was always a mix and for me she was just doing different music at a time. I think Britney was the main pop icon at a time. She started recording music and those mvs with dance routines and every1 started doing it too. Like Xtina, Jlo and many others. Maybe Britney didn't invent that but she sure was doing much bigger than any1 else at a time. So that ranking is just a mess imo.

[DignifiedLove]

9 minutes ago, zenden said:

As much as i love Jlo but i can't name her pop icon. She can be any other icon but her music wasn't pure pop. It was always a mix and for me she was just doing different music at a time. I think Britney was the main pop icon at a time. She started recording music and those mvs with dance routines and every1 started doing it too. Like Xtina, Jlo and many others. Maybe Britney didn't invent that but she sure was doing much bigger than any1 else at a time. So that ranking is just a mess imo.

Being a pop culture icon doesn’t mean you need to be or equate to strictly making pop music like what...  y’all are always finding new ways to discredit jlo, I swear