featured! Who Was The Bigger POP Culture Icon In 2003? Britney or JLO?

[RadicalOptimism]

53 minutes ago, Needleney said:

I think that wouldn't have been a good idea back then.  Shakira was sort of a 'new refreshed' version of Britney Spears, in 2001 they basically looked the same for the GP, that would have been a "confusing" duo. 

But that’s what made her feature with Beyoncé work. But yeah now to think about it Britney was too iconic for a feature that early in her career. I still would’ve wanted one, but maybe later in her career 

[Roxxy]

2 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

I can’t even think of the media even talking about Pinks videos though. Does she not have iconic and memorable videos? She does but I’m the perfect example of a casual fan and gp when it comes to Pink. Right now if you asked me the only videos I remember are You Make Me Sick, Get The Party Started, Lady Marmalade and Stupid Girls. And Christina made LM memorable and iconic. 

We discussed in that thread how it's not only music videos but imagery, lasting relevance, and impact. All things P!nk checked off the list while Xtina hasn't. Atleast for the "lasting relevance". 

[RadicalOptimism]

2 minutes ago, Roxxy said:

We discussed in that thread how it's not only music videos but imagery, lasting relevance, and impact. All things P!nk checked off the list while Xtina hasn't. Atleast for the "lasting relevance". 

It’s an award primarily for music video contributions though not about who’s had a more relevant career. Lady Marmalade is what Pink won Video of the Year for and let me tell you that in her short appearance Christina stole that video and song. I’m not going to discredit Pink and her success either, but people may not be here for a Xtina’s music right now, but there’s no denying people remember who she is and her music. I guess what I’m trying to say is that no matter when she gets it she does deserve to get it. If you look at the list of who’s won it before Britney, a lot of them don’t even make sense. Even when Madonna won it, it was too early in her career to have received it. At the time she only had a couple of memorable videos. Would’ve made more sense after her Immaculate Collection era. You make very valid points, but saying she’s undeserving of it is simply not fair when you brought up sales and charts. 

[Roxxy]

Also, i'd like to stress that likeability is also a huge factor for high honors such as the Vanguard. Atleast if you're not likeable, your work better be of epic proportions, big and seismic enough that they will have no other choice but to give it to you. That your work is compelling enough to make them not look the other way. Just like Madonna. The press are afraid of her and the industry knows she's a bich but they all respect her impact to pop culture.

If MTV has been looking the other way towards Xtina's "eligibility", it means her work isn't that strong enough to force their hand. 

[RadicalOptimism]

2 hours ago, Sinned_88 said:

Isn't this ranking only based on their achievements and impact on the year 2003? In that case, I wouldn't be surprised that they placed J.Lo higher than Britney. Britney of course had the VMA performence, MATM mv and ITZ release but that was about it. J.Lo was everywhere.

No it was leading to 2003. Elvis was the top spot I believe and he had already been dead for a while 

[Roxxy]

2 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

It’s an award primarily for music video contributions though not about who’s had a more relevant career. Lady Marmalade is what Pink won Video of the Year for and let me tell you that in her short appearance Christina stole that video and song. I’m not going to discredit Pink and her success either, but people may not be here for a Xtina’s music right now, but there’s no denying people remember who she is and her music. I guess what I’m trying to say is that no matter when she gets it she does deserve to get it. If you look at the list of who’s won it before Britney, a lot of them don’t even make sense. Even when Madonna won it, it was too early in her career to have received it. At the time she only had a couple of memorable videos. Would’ve made more sense after her Immaculate Collection era. You make very valid points, but saying she’s undeserving of it is simply not fair when you brought up sales and charts. 

Wait did i say she's undeserving, if i said that i'm sorry. I'll rephrase. She's came up short. 

[RadicalOptimism]

1 minute ago, Roxxy said:

Also, i'd like to stress that likeability is also a huge factor for high honors such as the Vanguard. Atleast if you're not likeable, your work better be of epic proportions, big and seismic enough that they will have no other choice but to give it to you. That your work is compelling enough to make them not look the other way. Just like Madonna. The press are afraid of her and the industry knows she's a bich but they all respect her impact to pop culture.

If MTV has been looking the other way towards Xtina's "eligibility", it means her work isn't that strong enough to force their hand. 

That’s true and I can’t believe they gave it to Rihanna before Lady Gaga though. Rihanna has one or two years of relevancy over Gaga and her videography isn’t as strong. It’s really not fair that nowadays they go based off YouTube streams than actual imagery. 

[RadicalOptimism]

2 minutes ago, Roxxy said:

Wait did i say she's undeserving, if i said that i'm sorry. I'll rephrase. She's came up short. 

Idk it’s almost three in the morning here and I really don’t know what the hell I’m doing at this hour defending Christina when my *** has work today 

[Roxxy]

9 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

That’s true and I can’t believe they gave it to Rihanna before Lady Gaga though. Rihanna has one or two years of relevancy over Gaga and her videography isn’t as strong. It’s really not fair that nowadays they go based off YouTube streams than actual imagery. 

Rihanna has been a force in pop culture - maybe not through actual imagery. But she's practically today's biggest female artist together with Beyoncé. Kinda like how Janet was. She didn't have the same impact as Madonna's when it comes to imagery but she's just as iconic (ok maybe a little less) as Madonna. Atleast the both of them were kinda at the same level. All of the succeeding Vanguard winners after Britney have been either on the same level as her or outlasted and outimpacted her. Xtina is neither of those things. Even during Xtina's peak, she was never as big as Britney (as an icon and phenomenon). Atleast Janet kinda matched Madonna in a way. Destiny's Child (later Beyoncé) Usher, and *NSYNC were Britney's actual rivals during her peak and not Xtina. Xtina although always being put alongside the name of Britney, impact and success wise, she was never on par. 

[RadicalOptimism]

6 minutes ago, Roxxy said:

Rihanna has been a force in pop culture - maybe not through actual imagery. But she's practically today's biggest female artist together with Beyoncé. Kinda like how Janet was. She didn't have the same impact as Madonna's when it comes to imagery but she's just as iconic (ok maybe a little less) as Madonna. Atleast the both of them were kinda at the same level. All of the succeeding Vanguard winners after Britney have been either on the same level as her or outlasted and outimpacted her. Xtina is neither of those things. Even during Xtina's peak, she was never as big as Britney (as an icon and phenomenon). Atleast Janet kinda matched Madonna in a way. Destiny's Child (later Beyoncé) Usher, and *NSYNC were Britney's actual rivals during her peak and not Xtina. Xtina although always being put alongside the name of Britney, impact and success wise, she was never on par. 

Her being the biggest artist right now is kind of a reach though. She hasn’t done anything for music in 4 years. I’m not denying her career either, but the emphasis on the award is on imagery over pop culture impact. I’m not even her biggest fan, but Gaga and even Katy have been consistent with their visuals 

[Roxxy]

11 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

Her being the biggest artist right now is kind of a reach though. She hasn’t done anything for music in 4 years. I’m not denying her career either, but the emphasis on the award is on imagery over pop culture impact. I’m not even her biggest fan, but Gaga and even Katy have been consistent with their visuals 

It's not a reach.  She literally outsold all our faves. Just because she doesn't have new music out for years, it don't mean her star power and relevance has diminished - just like Beyoncé. Rihanna has passed Madonna's record of #1s and is now the female with the second most Hot 100 #1s and also - We Found Love. Xtina can only dream of Rihanna's seismic career. Literally all celebrities love Rihanna and Beyonce to the point where some people say they are overrated. You won't have people thinking you're overrated if you aren't that popular or highly regarded in the first place. Atleast for our time, right now. Rihanna is one of the most prominent figures in pop culture like Beyonce and Taylor and Gaga and Beyonce. But i'd say its really Rih, Bey, and Tay. 

[DollyParton]

1 hour ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

But that’s what made her feature with Beyoncé work. But yeah now to think about it Britney was too iconic for a feature that early in her career. I still would’ve wanted one, but maybe later in her career 

Beyonce is black, Shakira is 'white'. So different looks.

 

Britney and Shakira were both white, naturally brunette, dyed blond long hair, brown eyes, same make up,  both doing the 'crop top style' etc..  when Shakira debuted worldwide in 2001 i was 10 years old, I was a huge Britney fan already. In my memories they were exactly the same. (that changed later in Shakira's career tho). A feature later in their career would have been iconic indeed

[RadicalOptimism]

11 minutes ago, Roxxy said:

It's not a reach.  She literally outsold all our faves. Just because she doesn't have new music out for years, it don't mean her star power and relevance has diminished - just like Beyoncé. Rihanna has passed Madonna's record of #1s and is now the female with the second most Hot 100 #1s and also - We Found Love. Xtina can only dream of Rihanna's seismic career. Literally all celebrities love Rihanna and Beyonce to the point where some people say they are overrated. You won't have people thinking you're overrated if you aren't that popular or highly regarded in the first place. Atleast for our time, right now. Rihanna is one of the most prominent figures in pop culture like Beyonce and Taylor and Gaga and Beyonce. But i'd say its really Rih, Bey, and Tay. 

I’m not interested in singles sales. She’s a singles artists. Her albums were never in high demand until streaming because streaming is free. She is relevant, but calling her the biggest artist right now is a reach regardless of what they’ve sold. She’s ventured into other projects right she seems more passionate about anyways. She’s almost 14 years into her career and only has two #1 albums. To me #1 albums speak more than #1 songs. In a world where streaming songs like Harlem Shake can be #1 because of streaming, it’s not that much of an impressive achievement anymore. We will never be able to compare chart success today than that of before and Rihanna was always a singles juggernaut. I’ll give her that, but the demand for her albums came about after streaming. So if one of her songs streamed the equivalent of BOMT are we going to say it outimpacted when literally I can make a tik tok video of my dog taking a **** with the song on loop and get streams that way. Let’s give Billy Ray the award for having the longest running #1 on the billboard 

[RadicalOptimism]

10 minutes ago, Needleney said:

Beyonce is black, Shakira is 'white'. So different looks.

 

Britney and Shakira were both white, naturally brunette, dyed blond long hair, brown eyes, same make up,  both doing the 'crop top style' etc..  when Shakira debuted worldwide in 2001 i was 10 years old, I was a huge Britney fan already. In my memories they were exactly the same. (that changed later in Shakira's career tho). A feature later in their career would have been iconic indeed

Yeah we are the same age and the sane applies to my experience being a big fan back then as well 

[Roxxy]

5 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

I’m not interested in singles sales. She’s a singles artists. Her albums were never in high demand until streaming because streaming is free. She is relevant, but calling her the biggest artist right now is a reach regardless of what they’ve sold. She’s ventured into other projects right she seems more passionate about anyways. She’s almost 14 years into her career and only has two #1 albums. To me #1 albums speak more than #1 songs. In a world where streaming songs like Harlem Shake can be #1 because of streaming, it’s not that much of an impressive achievement anymore. We will never be able to compare chart success today than that of before and Rihanna was always a singles juggernaut. I’ll give her that, but the demand for her albums came about after streaming. So if one of her songs streamed the equivalent of BOMT are we going to say it outimpacted when literally I can make a tik tok video of my dog taking a **** with the song on loop and get streams that way. Let’s give Billy Ray the award for having the longest running #1 on the billboard 

An achievement is an achievement regardless if they are singles and not albums. Mariah has a bad record when it comes to albums too. She's 6 for 15. Britney is 6 for 9. But Mariah with her 19 #1s is just as much an icon as Britney - even more if you ask me. 

[RadicalOptimism]

Just now, Roxxy said:

An achievement is an achievement regardless if they are singles and not albums. Mariah has a bad record when it comes to albums too. She's 6 for 16. Britney is 7 for 9. But Mariah with her 19 #1s is just as much an icon as Britney - even more if you ask me. 

6 for 16 is still 6 #1 albums and yes I agree she’s a bigger icon than Britney due to her album sales. 7 for 9 is still 7 #1 albums. Saying she outsold in singles ok that’s fair. Saying she outsold in general? Nope. That’s where I respectfully say you’re mistaken. An achievement is an achievement but let’s place them in different categories. It’s disrespectful to ones art to place songs and albums that outsold outside of pure sales. There should be a singles chart and an albums chart. A pure sales chart and a streaming chart. That would translate true success and be more fair to say what outlasted and outsold. Rebecca Black would’ve had a #1 single had streaming been a thing back then. Does she deserve it for being a viral fad? Absolutely would not deserve to be in the same league as BOMT, Womanizet and other #1 singles 

[Roxxy]

1 minute ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

6 for 16 is still 6 #1 albums and yes I agree she’s a bigger icon than Britney due to her album sales. 7 for 9 is still 7 #1 albums. Saying she outsold in singles ok that’s fair. Saying she outsold in general? Nope. That’s where I respectfully say you’re mistaken. An achievement is an achievement but let’s place them in different categories. It’s disrespectful to ones art to place songs and albums that outsold outside of pure sales. There should be a singles chart and an albums chart. A pure sales chart and a streaming chart. That would translate true success and be more fair to say what outlasted and outsold. Rebecca Black would’ve had a #1 single had streaming been a thing back then. Does she deserve it for being a viral fad? Absolutely would not deserve to be in the same league as BOMT, Womanizet and other #1 singles 

I'm saying outsold in total. Even if we categorize them as singles and albums separately, at the end of the day, they are all counted together and that's why you always hear introductions like "sold over 50/100/150/200/250 million records worldwide". I know and I believe pure sales are more respectable but if we downplay streaming numbers than that would be a disservice and disrespectful to an artist such as Taylor Swift who is a streaming force and has amassed her "over 100 million records" title because of streaming - which we should not be doing (downplaying streaming) because Taylor really is one of the biggest artists of our time. 

[RadicalOptimism]

6 minutes ago, Roxxy said:

I'm saying outsold in total. Even if we categorize them as singles and albums separately, at the end of the day, they are all counted together and that's why you always hear introductions like "sold over 50/100/150/200/250 million records worldwide". I know and I believe pure sales are more respectable but if we downplay streaming numbers than that would be a disservice and disrespectful to an artist such as Taylor Swift who is a streaming force and has amassed her "over 100 million records" title because of streaming - which we should not be doing (downplaying streaming) because Taylor really is one of the biggest artists of our time. 

Taylor has always been an albums artist though and she deserves every bit of success she has for being instrumental in writing her records. Don’t even get me started on the whole “records” ordeal because 1500 streams will never equate an album and both being counted as a record IS disrespectful to someone like Madonna, Mariah and Britney. Even Janet has contributed more to pop culture. Pop culture now is not the same as before. I would be more shook meeting a legend like Janet over Ariana even though I listen to the latter more. Artists nowadays are so accessible through all mediums it really is and won’t ever be a fair comparison. 

[Roxxy]

19 minutes ago, CrazyButItFeelsAllright said:

Taylor has always been an albums artist though and she deserves every bit of success she has for being instrumental in writing her records. Don’t even get me started on the whole “records” ordeal because 1500 streams will never equate an album and both being counted as a record IS disrespectful to someone like Madonna, Mariah and Britney. Even Janet has contributed more to pop culture. Pop culture now is not the same as before. I would be more shook meeting a legend like Janet over Ariana even though I listen to the latter more. Artists nowadays are so accessible through all mediums it really is and don’t ever be a fair comparison. 

She is an albums artist, yes. But she's not that big. She might be the biggest album seller right now but she still isnt that big. 1989 is close to reaching Diamond certification. Why? Because of streaming. Because of SEA and TEA. Because Shake It Off and Blank Space are at the billions on Youtube. Do I think TEA is fair? No. But I get it and I understand why it is in place. What I'm saying is 1989's 8 million sales in the US are not all 8 million copies sold of the album. A big chunk of that is 1500 plays of Shake It Off is 1 purchase of that song and multiply that to 10 and that's 1 purchase of the album. 15,000 plays (if my mental Math is correct) of Shake It Off is 1 purchase of the 1989 album. So yes, she is an album artist but if you think 1989 is selling big numbers then you are wrong because it isn't. It's driven by TEA and that is the tea. 

EDIT: Sorry i got the numbers wrong my train of thought is just all over the place. It must be the lack of sleep. I need milk.  I mean 1500 plays of Shake It Off is 1 album purchase of 1989.

[RadicalOptimism]

1 minute ago, Roxxy said:

She is an albums artist, yes. But she's not that big. She might be the biggest album seller right now but she still isnt that big. 1989 is close to reaching Diamond certification. Why? Because of streaming. Because of SEA and TEA. Because Shake It Off and Blank Space are at the billions on Youtube. Do I think TEA is fair? No. But I get it and I understand why it is in place. What I'm saying is 1989's 8 million sales in the US are not all 8 million copies sold of the album. A big chunk of that is 1500 plays of Shake It Off is 1 purchase of that song and multiply that to 10 and that's 1 purchase of the album. 15,000 plays (if my mental Math is correct) of Shake It Off is 1 purchase of the 1989 album. So yes, she is an album artist but if you think 1989 is selling big numbers then you are wrong because it isn't. It's driven by TEA and that is the tea. 

I’m talking about her albums before 1989. I’ve been a fan since Tim McGraw and actually lost interest and boycotted her when she released Shake It Off. A pure coincidence it’s when streaming took off. I only got back to liking her again after Look What You Made Me Do. Did I have my favorites from the former? Yeah I did, but it wasn’t the singles with the exception of the original Bad Blood. And yes even for Taylor I would say it’s fair to place her TEA asides from pure sales. She’s a touring phenomenon anyways. I guess back to our previous discussions - it’s more than just single sales. The entire package consisting of album and single sales, memorable performances, music videos, media coverage, etc have a lot to do with it. Pink did deserve her Vanguard when she did and had they had the same requirements they did when they first started out, Britney, Christina and Beyonce would’ve had theirs 15-20 years ago. Thank you for this discussion though and for bringing valid points to the table. Not I’m off to get whatever shred of sleep I can get