Trans vs Detrans debate. Interesting watch

[Viking84]

6 minutes ago, X_M said:

Don't get near kids, please. As LGBT, I ask you, let kids be kids.

I doubt you are LGBT. If you are, you must be like one of those self-hating gays in Alabama that desperately want to fit in so they conform to their Republican friends and spew right-wing propaganda all day.

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

Btw, I'm happy we can all have a conversation about these things. I'm glad I can see different perspectives, opinions and experiences.

It's the best way one can learn.

 

I'm happy we are actually a pretty well understanding community

[Viking84]

6 minutes ago, Neydelinska Spearsi said:

 

Actually not really. I just recently realized how Xena - the princess warrior was the gayest series I've ever watched and I was watching it while it was airing as a kid (90s).

I had no clue how openly gay the series is. It's actually funny.

Haha. Well, that's true but I mean real openly gay role models. I mean, she never said she was. I just remember everything on TV about gay people then was very negative. I got this idea that all gay people are miserable and have HIV and it damaged me a lot. LGBT kids need positive role models to be mentally healthy. They need to see themselves represented positively to develop healthily. All of these people saying "oh let kids be kids" don't actually give a damn about kids. They just use children as a tool to force their anti-LGBT propaganda on others.

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

1 minute ago, Viking84 said:

Haha. Well, that's true but I mean real openly gay role models. I mean, she never said she was. I just remember everything on TV about gay people then was very negative. I got this idea that all gay people are miserable and have HIV and it damaged me a lot. LGBT kids need positive role models to be mentally healthy. They need to see themselves represented positively to develop healthily. All of these people saying "oh let kids be kids" don't actually give a damn about kids. They just use children as a tool to force their anti-LGBT propaganda on others.

 

Basically more Alan Turnings but without them being killed for being gay.  It's sad how he got killed for just being gay (underwent forceful ''gay conversion'' and killed himself after few years) but saved millions and millions of people and ended WW2 by his coding skills.

 

 

[Viking84]

1 minute ago, Neydelinska Spearsi said:

 

Basically more Alan Turnings but without them being killed for being gay.  It's sad how he got killed for just being gay (underwent forceful ''gay conversion'' and killed himself after few years) but saved millions and millions of people and ended WW2 by his coding skills.

 

 

Exactly. It's sad that we can't all just be accepting of and love each other. The world would be a much nicer place to be in. 

 

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

4 minutes ago, Viking84 said:

Exactly. It's sad that we can't all just be accepting of and love each other. The world would be a much nicer place to be in. 

 

 

So true.

But the fact we can talk about these things without jumping on each other thirsty for permabans is a sign we are going forwards. Having conversations and listening to each other are the keys. Even when we disagree on some things.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Neydelinska Spearsi
typo

[Jsken]

1 hour ago, Viking84 said:

Yeah but surgery can only do so much. For example, testosterone will make your shoulders broader, your voice deeper and everything bigger.  I mean, if you think they can just correct it after going through the wrong puberty, then surely we can say the same about the small number who regret it? As long as they haven't had genital surgery, they can go back. Same logic.

 

I am just curious about something. There are cis women who naturally have deep voices, broad shoulders, and are built in ways that are not typically considered feminine. They are still women. It is a social belief that women's bodies should be petite or that our voices should be a certain pitch. In the case of cis girls and cis women who are uncomfortable in their bodies I think the correct response to is to encourage them to love themselves for how they are, even if we could give them medication as children that would help them achieve a more feminine ideal. Cis women are frequently dysphoric about their bodies--not in the sense of gender dysphoria where their body is inconsistent with their gender identity, but in the sense that their body does not match up to how they wish it would be. 

Idk. I just wonder if it would be better to focus on the societal attitudes that make us think that women need to live up to a particular physical ideal before we give (still somewhat new, experimental?) medications to children. Focus on encouraging people to love their bodies even when their bodies are not the social ideal. 

[Mxra]

14 hours ago, Viking84 said:

Why? When you are 18+, your secondary ***ual characteristics have developed. An MFT will have a deep voice, the bone structure of a man etc. It will ruin her life quality permanently. My best friend is trans and it's her biggest regret. I think you belong to a small minority of trans people with that view. And besides, bottom surgery can be performed after 18 but at least holding off puberty with puberty-delaying medication is essential. People just don't seem to understand how devastating it is for trans people to go through the "wrong" puberty.

By the age of 18 you still haven't completed your first puberty. So when it comes to effects of hormones etc. It wont really have much effect on their efficiency. Even someone such as myself who chose to start my medical transition about a month after I turned 18 I really don't think minors have the ability to make a choice as big as this one. It's chemical castration. I'm personally glad I made the choice to wait. 

While I do think SOME minors for sure have gender dysphoria and would greatly benefit from hormonal therapy the cons outweight them by far. I see so many problems for the advocacy of allowing it. I think the thought that a 14 year old has the ability to thoroughly think a decision like this through honestly mind blowing. 

[Mxra]

As a trans person it's good seeing this being discussed and I'm loving seeing all your opinions. Both the ones I agree with and not. While i'm heavily against medically assisted transitioning for kids I'm also seeing the topic of what it means to actually be trans pop into the conversation. 

Personally I like to think of myself as very self aware. I DO think that gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Theres science to back this up. I do also believe in the idea that a person does need to "transition" to become "trans". It's even in the name. While I accept and love non binary people. I do not see them as trans nor do I think someone like myself who has received hormones and surgeries belongs in the same category as NB people. 

[BUWYGF]

15 hours ago, The Greatest Show said:

Ok and if you take puberty blockers your ***** will not develope and you will be stuck with a mini peenis that is too small to turn into a *******. So you will be stuck with medical issues for the rest of your life like Jazz Jennings or a baby *****. 

Puberty blockers also mess with your bone density and castrate you. For what? So you can maybe be a prettier girl?

 

ok so what is your solution? These people want to be women, you say that it's not healthy. So why aren't you offering a solution? 

[BUWYGF]

15 hours ago, LanaDelGeyJordeezy said:

"Looking like a woman" is a very gender binary way of viewing things. It's so weird how the same people who talk about gender fluidity keep pushing these VERY binary stereotypes 

most of them wish to be women, what you're on about?

[The Greatest Show]

46 minutes ago, BUWYGF said:

ok so what is your solution? These people want to be women, you say that it's not healthy. So why aren't you offering a solution? 

Go to therapy and work on your issues and accepting  yourself. If you still want to be a woman at 18+ then go for it. 

[Viking84]

13 hours ago, Jsken said:

I am just curious about something. There are cis women who naturally have deep voices, broad shoulders, and are built in ways that are not typically considered feminine. They are still women. It is a social belief that women's bodies should be petite or that our voices should be a certain pitch. In the case of cis girls and cis women who are uncomfortable in their bodies I think the correct response to is to encourage them to love themselves for how they are, even if we could give them medication as children that would help them achieve a more feminine ideal. Cis women are frequently dysphoric about their bodies--not in the sense of gender dysphoria where their body is inconsistent with their gender identity, but in the sense that their body does not match up to how they wish it would be. 

Idk. I just wonder if it would be better to focus on the societal attitudes that make us think that women need to live up to a particular physical ideal before we give (still somewhat new, experimental?) medications to children. Focus on encouraging people to love their bodies even when their bodies are not the social ideal. 

I see your point. I think that is also very important but I think there is still a difference between naturally developing more masculine and feminine than what society expects and going through the wrong type of puberty. For a man to have a period and grow breasts or for a woman to grow facial hair and get a voice that sounds like a man's voice... That's traumatising and on another level.

[Viking84]

3 hours ago, Mxra said:

As a trans person it's good seeing this being discussed and I'm loving seeing all your opinions. Both the ones I agree with and not. While i'm heavily against medically assisted transitioning for kids I'm also seeing the topic of what it means to actually be trans pop into the conversation. 

Personally I like to think of myself as very self aware. I DO think that gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Theres science to back this up. I do also believe in the idea that a person does need to "transition" to become "trans". It's even in the name. While I accept and love non binary people. I do not see them as trans nor do I think someone like myself who has received hormones and surgeries belongs in the same category as NB people. 

I am not buying that you really are trans. No trans person I know would call it a mental illness. There is science to back up this it's a physical condition which develops in the womb. I can't remember the exact study but there is a part of the brain anatomy that develops like a bio woman in the womb for trans women and vice versa for trans men. I also don't know any other trans person that thinks trans children should be forced to go through puberty before transitioning. I also don't know any trans people who consider transitioning a necessary aspect of being trans. You don't need to sleep with men to be a gay man. In the same way, taking hormones and having surgery doesn't make you trans. If you are truly trans, you belong to a very small minority of trans people who have those opinions, kind of like Caitlyn Jenner and her right-wing ideals.

[Viking84]

3 hours ago, Mxra said:

By the age of 18 you still haven't completed your first puberty. So when it comes to effects of hormones etc. It wont really have much effect on their efficiency. Even someone such as myself who chose to start my medical transition about a month after I turned 18 I really don't think minors have the ability to make a choice as big as this one. It's chemical castration. I'm personally glad I made the choice to wait. 

While I do think SOME minors for sure have gender dysphoria and would greatly benefit from hormonal therapy the cons outweight them by far. I see so many problems for the advocacy of allowing it. I think the thought that a 14 year old has the ability to thoroughly think a decision like this through honestly mind blowing. 

OK I saw this post now too and there is no way you are really trans. A real trans***ual person knows why it's so important to take hormones before puberty hits. Also, we are talking about hormones, not genital surgery. Genital surgery can of course be done at any point but by 18, puberty is almost complete and it till be impossible for most people to "pass" if they haven't taken hormones earlier. Not doing anything before 18 is just as much a decision as doing it.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Viking84

[Viking84]

25 minutes ago, The Greatest Show said:

Go to therapy and work on your issues and accepting  yourself. If you still want to be a woman at 18+ then go for it. 

Trans people don't "want to be" something. We are talking about a girl being raised as a boy or a boy being raised as a girl. It's not a mental illness which develops as a result of trauma but something which exists from birth. Even in psychology, this is recognised. Waiting until 18 means that the body is permanently disfigured. Would you have liked to be forced to take male hormones and look like a man for the rest of your life? 

[The Greatest Show]

24 minutes ago, Viking84 said:

Trans people don't "want to be" something. We are talking about a girl being raised as a boy or a boy being raised as a girl. It's not a mental illness which develops as a result of trauma but something which exists from birth. Even in psychology, this is recognised. Waiting until 18 means that the body is permanently disfigured. Would you have liked to be forced to take male hormones and look like a man for the rest of your life? 

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and Almost 50% of trans people kill themselves even after transitioning. You think that has nothing to do with mental illness?

[everybodygoesdown]

I'm very divided on this.

My godson is 5 years old and has already repeatedly said he would like to be a girl. He likes to play dress up and likes pink, painting his nails, jewellery, dolls, etc, and we all love him and accept him and support whatever he likes or is interested in.

I myself as a kid loved playing dress up, playing with dolls etc, and I THINK if they would have asked me as a 5 or 6 y.o. if I wanted to become a girl that , I might have said yes.  But I grew up and all those interests just disappeared by the time I was about 14 and I am super happy being a man and never felt the desire to go drag or put on makeup or anything like that. 

It would break my heart if my godson or some doctors would damage his body in some way before he even hits puberty and then he ends up regretting it or is traumatised by it. On the other hand I would equally hate if he would really be trans and would have to go through high school feeling like he can't be himself and people don't respect his wishes.

I feel like where is the line, at what age can you really know ???

That's why I feel like it's a much safer world if we all treat gender a bit less serious, and accept that boys can be into girls stuff and vice versa. Also I like the whole non-binary thing because it gives a lot of kids some more time to explore who they are, what they like, and that they don't have to be one or the other, they can just exist and have an identity without having to conform to a gender.

 

[Viking84]

18 minutes ago, The Greatest Show said:

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness and Almost 50% of trans people kill themselves even after transitioning. You think that has nothing to do with mental illness?

How would you define a mental illness?

And where are you getting that statistic from?

Whatever that number is, I guarantee you that the suicide rate would be the lowest if trans people were able to take hormones before puberty hits. 

Lastly, why are you so full of hatred? What did your parents do to you? Were you not loved enough?

[Viking84]

3 minutes ago, everybodygoesdown said:

I'm very divided on this.

My godson is 5 years old and has already repeatedly said he would like to be a girl. He likes to play dress up and likes pink, painting his nails, jewellery, dolls, etc, and we all love him and accept him and support whatever he likes or is interested in.

I myself as a kid loved playing dress up, playing with dolls etc, and I THINK if they would have asked me as a 5 or 6 y.o. if I wanted to become a girl that , I might have said yes.  But I grew up and all those interests just disappeared by the time I was about 14 and I am super happy being a man and never felt the desire to go drag or put on makeup or anything like that. 

It would break my heart if my godson or some doctors would damage his body in some way before he even hits puberty and then he ends up regretting it or is traumatised by it. On the other hand I would equally hate if he would really be trans and would have to go through high school feeling like he can't be himself and people don't respect his wishes.

I feel like where is the line, at what age can you really know ???

That's why I feel like it's a much safer world if we all treat gender a bit less serious, and accept that boys can be into girls stuff and vice versa. Also I like the whole non-binary thing because it gives a lot of kids some more time to explore who they are, what they like, and that they don't have to be one or the other, they can just exist and have an identity without having to conform to a gender.

 

Totally get your point. I think that's a good argument for not allowing genital surgery until after 18. However, it is important that hormones are administered at the right time because once a trans person has gone through puberty, it is impossible for them to have a normal life. It's too late. Their life is already partially destroyed.  By not allowing hormone treatment before puberty, there would be a 100% guarantee that all trans people will have worse lives.