Trans vs Detrans debate. Interesting watch

[Steve W]

1 hour ago, Viking84 said:

 

Of course counselling is a part of it. Nobody is just put on hormones without counselling first. That doesn't mean they have to wait until 18 to take puberty blockers or hormones. The point here is that you claim to care about the well-being of children, but you don't. If you really did, then you would care about trans kids but you don't because you think that they should all be forced to go through a traumatising puberty which will permanently damage their bodies and minds.

We can agree to disagree. I do care , yet I still think any sort of transition should happen at 21 . Including hormones . Kids hormones are crazy enough . I am not denouncing someones truth . I just think children need a lot of counseling prior to any transition. 21 is a better age than in their younger years . Sorry I disagree fully on this narrative your pushing. These kids need to be in counseling and have educational help provided towards their future transition. Kids are cruel enough at a young age . You keep talking about these kids attempting suicide. Its not just trans who have these thoughts. Straight , gay , trans, depression, chemical imbalance so many factors involved in suicidal thoughts or actions . At a young age I attempted . Thankfully I got past all that. I am glad your so passionate over this topic. I get where your coming from . Yet I do not follow your thoughts on this issue. Kids have a lot of developmental issues . Hormones are expensive, so is surgery possibly way down the road. Then counseling costs as well.  My trans friends talk about the hate they receive . Yet my friends agree with waiting until a child reaches adult hood . They waited . The few friends I have said they were glad they waited honestly . Yet thats their experience and beliefs . I agree with that narrative of waiting. Counseling and guidance can help many from attempting suicide. A young mind is already so impressionable. So many emotions all over the board . Many at a young age think they are adults and know whats right and wrong. Yet they need to learn patience.    They are lucky in todays era we have the capabilities to transition.  Sometimes life is unfair . The world is a tough place . I get where your coming from but I think 21 is a better age ..maybe 18 for hormones . I know plenty who took hormones in their 30’s to transition. They were jus as successful. They also had more time to figure it out and the monetary means to afford the luxury of transitioning . 

[Viking84]

4 hours ago, The Greatest Show said:

Im not. You don't listen to anyone and keep repeating the same BS so your opinion means absolutely nothing. Also if you are willong to harm children saying that I lack empathy also means nothing 

You are the one who wants to harm children by forcing trans children to endure puberty, destroying their bodies and mental health. And you are also the one that doesn't listen to anyone and repeat the same BS. Your opinion on this lacks zero support in any academic field. 

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

Just now, Viking84 said:

You are the one who wants to harm children by forcing trans children to endure puberty, destroying their bodies and mental health. And you are also the one that doesn't listen to anyone and repeat the same BS. Your opinion on this lacks zero support in any academic field. 

 

Hun, there are way worse things on this planet than a natural process made by evolution (puberty). It's not like you're dying when you hit it.

[Viking84]

3 hours ago, Steve W said:

We can agree to disagree. I do care , yet I still think any sort of transition should happen at 21 . Including hormones . Kids hormones are crazy enough . I am not denouncing someones truth . I just think children need a lot of counseling prior to any transition. 21 is a better age than in their younger years . Sorry I disagree fully on this narrative your pushing. These kids need to be in counseling and have educational help provided towards their future transition. Kids are cruel enough at a young age . You keep talking about these kids attempting suicide. Its not just trans who have these thoughts. Straight , gay , trans, depression, chemical imbalance so many factors involved in suicidal thoughts or actions . At a young age I attempted . Thankfully I got past all that. I am glad your so passionate over this topic. I get where your coming from . Yet I do not follow your thoughts on this issue. Kids have a lot of developmental issues . Hormones are expensive, so is surgery possibly way down the road. Then counseling costs as well.  My trans friends talk about the hate they receive . Yet my friends agree with waiting until a child reaches adult hood . They waited . The few friends I have said they were glad they waited honestly . Yet thats their experience and beliefs . I agree with that narrative of waiting. Counseling and guidance can help many from attempting suicide. A young mind is already so impressionable. So many emotions all over the board . Many at a young age think they are adults and know whats right and wrong. Yet they need to learn patience.    They are lucky in todays era we have the capabilities to transition.  Sometimes life is unfair . The world is a tough place . I get where your coming from but I think 21 is a better age ..maybe 18 for hormones . I know plenty who took hormones in their 30’s to transition. They were jus as successful. They also had more time to figure it out and the monetary means to afford the luxury of transitioning . 

Yes, anyone can be suicidal. But suicide is 4 times as common in the LGBT community as the general population and half of trans people attempt suicide before 30. This is because of how society treats them. And yes, it's a cruel world but we can work to make it less cruel. 

Hormones become less and less effective with age and they cannot reverse secondary ***ual characteristics. Living as the wrong physical s** is also extremely harmful for mental health. That's why it's important to do it as early as possible. My best friend is MTF and her biggest regret is not having been able to do it before puberty. I guarantee you the vast majority of trans people share this view. And yes, it's better in the first world than other parts of the world but it's still not good enough.

[Viking84]

3 minutes ago, Neydelinska Spearsi said:

 

Hun, there are way worse things on this planet than a natural process made by evolution (puberty). It's not like you're dying when you hit it.

I don't mean puberty for a non-trans person. I mean for example for a trans girl (born with male genitals) to go through male puberty. To get a deep voice and so on. It's extremely traumatising. Can you imagine if you were forced to take the wrong hormones at 12 and developed into the s** you don't want to be?

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

11 minutes ago, Viking84 said:

I don't mean puberty for a non-trans person. I mean for example for a trans girl (born with male genitals) to go through male puberty. To get a deep voice and so on. It's extremely traumatising. Can you imagine if you were forced to take the wrong hormones at 12 and developed into the s** you don't want to be?

 

No I can't because I was luckily raised in times where there has been no internet and it's contagion. If someone had issues, yes, it was a taboo to talk about them but it also wasn't a trend to do so. Plus, big pharma did not capitalize on those. Guess you can call it a- spared generation.

But back to the topic, putting the aside trans issues (which are very real and horrible) you have to admit there are a bunch of kids online doing this because they think it's a trend. Horrible way of thinking that has horrific consequences but no one is talking about it.

What about the kids who do it because it's literally a social trend and not because it's what they truly are?

Edited April 4, 2023 by Neydelinska Spearsi
typo

[Viking84]

11 hours ago, Neydelinska Spearsi said:

 

No I can't because I was luckily raised in times where there has been no internet and it's contagion. If someone had issues, yes, it was a taboo to talk about them but it also wasn't a trend to do so. Plus, big pharma did not capitalize on those. Guess you can call it a- spared generation.

But back to the topic, putting the aside trans issues (which are very real and horrible) you have to admit there are a bunch of kids online doing this because they think it's a trend. Horrible way of thinking that has horrific consequences but no one is talking about it.

What about the kids who do it because it's literally a social trend and not because it's what they truly are?

I don't think anyone does it because it's a trend. I think that's just a scaremongering myth created by anti-trans people. Maybe it appears more people are doing it now because more trans people feel safe enough to go through with transition as it's more accepted in Western society.

You also missed my point. This has nothing to do with the internet. We are talking about what a trans child has to go through if they are forced to wait until after puberty. For them, they have to watch their bodies permanently develop into something they shouldn't be. Puberty permanently disfigures their bodies. So once again, I ask you to imagine if you were forced to do a s** change at 12 and then live your life in total misery. That's what life is like for a transperson who hasn't been given help on time.

This has nothing do with trends. That's just a lie told by the right. Trans people have existed for as long as humans have existed. They are just more visible than ever.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Viking84

[Mxra]

On 4/4/2023 at 10:58 AM, Viking84 said:

I am not buying that you really are trans. No trans person I know would call it a mental illness. There is science to back up this it's a physical condition which develops in the womb. I can't remember the exact study but there is a part of the brain anatomy that develops like a bio woman in the womb for trans women and vice versa for trans men. I also don't know any other trans person that thinks trans children should be forced to go through puberty before transitioning. I also don't know any trans people who consider transitioning a necessary aspect of being trans. You don't need to sleep with men to be a gay man. In the same way, taking hormones and having surgery doesn't make you trans. If you are truly trans, you belong to a very small minority of trans people who have those opinions, kind of like Caitlyn Jenner and her right-wing ideals.

The fact you're grouping me into a box with Caitlyn Jenner just because I refuse to deny that something is a mental illness or because I refuse to agree with the chemical castration of children just gives a very close minded POV. I mean we could bring up the percentages of trans people that detransition. Which I would argue is a LOT less healthy than not allowing someone to medically transition till they are 18. As I said, there are definitely trans kids that would benefit from hormones but the vast majority shouldn't be making that decision. 

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

22 minutes ago, Mxra said:

The fact you're grouping me into a box with Caitlyn Jenner just because I refuse to deny that something is a mental illness or because I refuse to agree with the chemical castration of children just gives a very close minded POV. I mean we could bring up the percentages of trans people that detransition. Which I would argue is a LOT less healthy than not allowing someone to medically transition till they are 18. As I said, there are definitely trans kids that would benefit from hormones but the vast majority shouldn't be making that decision. 

 

I'd go with what I also said fot C19 vacc- let's wait and see before rush into it.

That one turned out to be a complete ****show, hopefully a reversible one for most of people. Lupron and surgeries- I don't know how those could be reversible.

[Viking84]

25 minutes ago, Mxra said:

The fact you're grouping me into a box with Caitlyn Jenner just because I refuse to deny that something is a mental illness or because I refuse to agree with the chemical castration of children just gives a very close minded POV. I mean we could bring up the percentages of trans people that detransition. Which I would argue is a LOT less healthy than not allowing someone to medically transition till they are 18. As I said, there are definitely trans kids that would benefit from hormones but the vast majority shouldn't be making that decision. 

No, no way you are trans. A transperson would never use the term "chemical castration" to refer to bottom surgery. A trans person knows the importance of taking hormones on time, and the fact that they can wait with bottom surgery. A transperson knows that the number who regret it is infinitely smaller than the number who commit suicide without ever coming out or who live miserable lives because they did it too late. A transperson would never refer to it as a mental illness but recognise that it is a physical condition which can only be treated with a physical change. No way you are trans. You are just pretending on this forum to argue your points. Then again, there are self-hating trans***uals the same way there are self-hating gays and black people (for example, Candace Owens who goes on Fox News to argue against BLM). You could be one of those.

[Mxra]

57 minutes ago, Viking84 said:

No, no way you are trans. A transperson would never use the term "chemical castration" to refer to bottom surgery. A trans person knows the importance of taking hormones on time, and the fact that they can wait with bottom surgery. A transperson knows that the number who regret it is infinitely smaller than the number who commit suicide without ever coming out or who live miserable lives because they did it too late. A transperson would never refer to it as a mental illness but recognise that it is a physical condition which can only be treated with a physical change. No way you are trans. You are just pretending on this forum to argue your points. Then again, there are self-hating trans***uals the same way there are self-hating gays and black people (for example, Candace Owens who goes on Fox News to argue against BLM). You could be one of those.

Yes I am trans and no chemical castration is used to describe hormonal therapy not bottom surgery. Also not. Not self hating I just dont blindsight myself by made up **** to try and save people their feelings. The way you're in a set mindset that all trans people MUST have the same opinion on things could be taken as transphobic. 

 

A bit like if i was to say as a mtf trans person my gender is female and my s** is male. You'd say "no trans person would ever say that" 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mxra

[Viking84]

5 hours ago, Mxra said:

Yes I am trans and no chemical castration is used to describe hormonal therapy not bottom surgery. Also not. Not self hating I just dont blindsight myself by made up **** to try and save people their feelings. The way you're in a set mindset that all trans people MUST have the same opinion on things could be taken as transphobic. 

 

A bit like if i was to say as a mtf trans person my gender is female and my s** is male. You'd say "no trans person would ever say that" 

I wouldn't say that. Any MTF knows that their biological s** is male and that their mental gender is female. No arguing with that. 

Well, you must be just like Caitlyn Jenner then. A poor representation of the community. I mean, comparing hormonal therapy with a treatment used to punish child molesters. It's kind of like when Caitlyn Jenner says she is traditional and against gay marriage. 

 

[rik]

Let trans people exist. I have no idea why so many of you are concerned with children’s ***uality and gender identity. 

[foreal]

On 4/4/2023 at 10:53 AM, Viking84 said:

 

Of course counselling is a part of it. Nobody is just put on hormones without counselling first. That doesn't mean they have to wait until 18 to take puberty blockers or hormones. The point here is that you claim to care about the well-being of children, but you don't. If you really did, then you would care about trans kids but you don't because you think that they should all be forced to go through a traumatising puberty which will permanently damage their bodies and minds.

Going through the natural healthy process of development  is damaging? In what world ? Certainly not earth. 

[Viking84]

18 hours ago, foreal said:

Going through the natural healthy process of development  is damaging? In what world ? Certainly not earth. 

For a trans person it is. Just because something develops naturally, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily good. Cancer develops naturally. Acne develops naturally.

The problem with the trans issue is that those who are anti-trans or anti-trans rights do not understand what it means to be trans. This is not about someone who would prefer to be the other s** and therefore having a s** change. This is about someone being born with a mental gender which does not match their biological, physical s**. This is extremely mentally traumatizing and the longer someone is forced to endure, the worse it is. Imagine if someone forced you to be raised as the opposite s**. Imagine hitting puberty and seeing your body turn into something it's not supposed to be. That's what it's like. Devastating.

This is really the core problem. People don't understand the topic at all. Read more about it. So many people have an uninformed opinion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

1 hour ago, Viking84 said:

For a trans person it is. Just because something develops naturally, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily good. Cancer develops naturally. Acne develops naturally.

The problem with the trans issue is that those who are anti-trans or anti-trans rights do not understand what it means to be trans. This is not about someone who would prefer to be the other s** and therefore having a s** change. This is about someone being born with a mental gender which does not match their biological, physical s**. This is extremely mentally traumatizing and the longer someone is forced to endure, the worse it is. Imagine if someone forced you to be raised as the opposite s**. Imagine hitting puberty and seeing your body turn into something it's not supposed to be. That's what it's like. Devastating.

This is really the core problem. People don't understand the topic at all. Read more about it. So many people have an uninformed opinion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No and no.

 

On what planet are those things natural??

[blackingouthenegativity]

My feelings are complicated on this, but only because I don't have all of the knowledge. However, I wouldn't take knowledge from conservatives on the internet over health effects, especially those who are anti-vaccine. I would speak to a doctor and fellow trans friends in person about their experiences and expertise to make a decision.

Furthermore, some of this rhetoric creates a primal anger against Trans folks and it puts them in danger. If you're screaming to protect young children, think about how your heated rhetoric could still put them in danger, even if it's just an LGBTQ male that wants to wear a dress and isn't even transitioning. It doesn't give us space to evolve on how we view gender roles in general.  

My first instinct would be to exercise caution on permanent changes during childhood, but encourage an exploration of style: hairstyle, clothing, not doing things because they're assigned to a particular gender role, etc. Keeping the conversation open and giving my child the space to talk about their gender. And if they decided they wanted to do that, I would still be deliberate but begin the process of talking with a couple of different doctors on this issue to not stunt that child. 

Basically, this is my long-winded way of saying to be thoughtful and deliberative about this while also just continuing to evolve on gender roles and not repressing children into the margins and becoming suicidal/depressed as they get older. And again, I don't have the definitive knowledge to say what the magic age is, so speak with professionals like doctors and trans people in person... not people who already have sketchy views on health and medicine. 

[Viking84]

3 hours ago, Neydelinska Spearsi said:

 

No and no.

 

On what planet are those things natural??

Definition of natural:

1. existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind.

   "carrots contain a natural antiseptic"
2. 2.

   in accordance with the nature of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something.

   "sharks have no natural enemies

On our planet, cancer and acne occur in nature. Therefore, they are natural. Lots of natural things are not healthy. For example, uranium is bad for our health. Medicine is man-made and is healthy. We need to drop this idea that natural and healthy/good are synonyms, because they aren't. Cancer is actually one of the most natural illnesses on Earth.

[Neydelinska Spearsi]

12 minutes ago, Viking84 said:

Definition of natural:

1. existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind.

   "carrots contain a natural antiseptic"

    
2. 2.

   in accordance with the nature of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something.

   "sharks have no natural enemies

On our planet, cancer and acne occur in nature. Therefore, they are natural. Lots of natural things are not healthy. For example, uranium is bad for our health. Medicine is man-made and is healthy. We need to drop this idea that natural and healthy/good are synonyms, because they aren't. Cancer is actually one of the most natural illnesses on Earth.

 

I'm done with this thread.

[Viking84]

5 minutes ago, Neydelinska Spearsi said:

 

I'm done with this thread.

Haha, but it's true. People often use the word natural without thinking about what it really means. Anything which occurs in nature is natural. What did you mean when you said cancer isn't natural? It has developed naturally with the evolution of animals.