OPINION: The conservatorship should only have been temporary

[DuranDuran]

1 hour ago, Steel Magnolia said:

What are the other options?

No, Britney should not have been placed under a temporary, much less a permanent Cship.  And it's a strange question about what her parents were supposed to do to help her, considering that her own parents had been setting her up for quite some time to put her under Cship. It was a planned trap with a PR campaign in the media against Britney. Instead of helping her, they deliberately made it worse at that time. *allegedly*

As for Sam... they could have requested a restraining order, if their allegations against him were true... and you keep mentioning that Sam confessed that he drugged her. Where did you read it? I know that it was Lynne's statement in the court documents, but in the court documents which Sam submitted, he did not admit it anywhere, at least in the documents that I read.

And, to be honest, I do not believe either Sam or Lynne, much less James, they are proved to be snakes. The only version of events that matters to me is Britney's...

[Steel Magnolia]

1 hour ago, Buffybot said:

Well... How many celebrities do you see with severe problems with *****, alchool? How many do we know suffering with mental illness?

How many of them are trapped in c-ships?

We can say Britney's case is unique, but she was able to work weeks after the c-ship started. If she was that bad, how that would have happened?

If Britney needed rehab or a time in a facility, that's "ok". But removing her rights quickly, treating her like a child and putting her to work like nothing happened... Ugh, not such a protective daddy thing to do.

You can't help a person simply controlling her like a doll.

That's exactly my point.

The law should not have allowed them to put her back to work. It should only have temporarily allowed activities that promoted safety, security, and healing.

I do understand that for Britney, certain amounts of work (e.g. learning choreography) are healing. But what we saw in FTR should have been the extent of it.

[Steel Magnolia]

31 minutes ago, DuranDuran said:

No, Britney should not have been placed under a temporary, much less a permanent Cship.  And it's a strange question about what her parents were supposed to do to help her, considering that her own parents had been setting her up for quite some time to put her under Cship. It was a planned trap with a PR campaign in the media against Britney. Instead of helping her, they deliberately made it worse at that time. *allegedly*

As for Sam... they could have requested a restraining order, if their allegations against him were true... and you keep mentioning that Sam confessed that he drugged her. Where did you read it? I know that it was Lynne's statement in the court documents, but in the court documents which Sam submitted, he did not admit it anywhere, at least in the documents that I read.

And, to be honest, I do not believe either Sam or Lynne, much less James, they are proved to be snakes. The only version of events that matters to me is Britney's...

Thank you for that.

I hadn't thought about the restraining order against Sam Lutfi — and that just backs up my theory even more that he was hired by either Lou or MVK. I'm starting to lean more towards MVK at this point. Did you notice when Lutfi last reared his head? It was within 24-hours of that article about Kevin Federline appearing in that E! article:

https://www.eonline.com/ca/news/1250669/inside-kevin-federlines-private-family-world

How conveeeeeeenient.

The drugging...

Sam confessed that he drugged her in an article on X17. It was at the very least a text interview, but if my memory serves me correctly it was actually an interview captured on video within the first two or three days after the second 5150 — before Lynne filed her declaration and they finally went after a restraining order. I wonder if the Wayback Machine may have captured it?

Anyway...

My point in all of this...

If the laws on the books at the time said that conservatorships could only be temporary...Then they never would have pursued it as an option at all! 

My theory is that they started planning the conservatorship before they railroaded her into rehab in February 2007. I believe they saw rehab as setting the legal foundation for what they wanted to do...They just had to bide their time, and wait until they had enough legal footing to pull the conservatorship off.

A temporary conservatorship only, had it been on the books of the State of California at the time, wouldn't have appealed to them because they wouldn't be able to use it as a tool to force her back into touring. There would have been no financial incentive to a temporary conservatorship, apart from what they could accomplish in six months or a year.

Jamie and Lou had a long term goal...A temporary conservatorship would have been of no interest to them, and they wouldn't have been pursued in the first place.

[LordofTheMoodRing]

21 minutes ago, Steel Magnolia said:

Thank you for that.

I hadn't thought about the restraining order against Sam Lutfi — and that just backs up my theory even more that he was hired by either Lou or MVK. I'm starting to lean more towards MVK at this point. Did you notice when Lutfi last reared his head? It was within 24-hours of that article about Kevin Federline appearing in that E! article:

https://www.eonline.com/ca/news/1250669/inside-kevin-federlines-private-family-world

How conveeeeeeenient.

The drugging...

Sam confessed that he drugged her in an article on X17. It was at the very least a text interview, but if my memory serves me correctly it was actually an interview captured on video within the first two or three days after the second 5150 — before Lynne filed her declaration and they finally went after a restraining order. I wonder if the Wayback Machine may have captured it?

Anyway...

My point in all of this...

If the laws on the books at the time said that conservatorships could only be temporary...Then they never would have pursued it as an option at all! 

My theory is that they started planning the conservatorship before they railroaded her into rehab in February 2007. I believe they saw rehab as setting the legal foundation for what they wanted to do...They just had to bide their time, and wait until they had enough legal footing to pull the conservatorship off.

A temporary conservatorship only, had it been on the books of the State of California at the time, wouldn't have appealed to them because they wouldn't be able to use it as a tool to force her back into touring. There would have been no financial incentive to a temporary conservatorship, apart from what they could accomplish in six months or a year.

Jamie and Lou had a long term goal...A temporary conservatorship would have been of no interest to them, and they wouldn't have been pursued in the first place.

The problem is you’re part-time rights theory is busted. Using a Conservatorship as a form of punishment is abuse. You have rights or you don’t. I think the focus should be about restoring her freedoms not inventing new cages to put her in. 

[Steel Magnolia]

1 minute ago, LordofTheMoodRing said:

The problem is you’re part-time rights theory is busted. Using a Conservatorship as a form of punishment is abuse. You have rights or you don’t. I think the focus should be about restoring her freedoms not inventing new cages to put her in. 

If the State of California made permanent conservatorships for this type of situation illegal...

She would be freed. 

[DuranDuran]

12 minutes ago, Steel Magnolia said:

Did you notice when Lutfi last reared his head?

Yeah, the timing was sus... Lutfi is shady af... His appearance in the lives of several people was followed by an attempt to capture these people under the pretext of Cship...  Lindsay, Cortney, Amanda... kinda sus...

Because of this, personally, I am more inclined to believe that he was hired by Lou or ,maybe, by people who are behind Lou. But this does not negate the fact that there is a very high probability that Sam or/and Lou were also in cahoots with MVK, cuz he is clearly team Con

 

[studlygeorge]

3 hours ago, Steel Magnolia said:

For those of you posting, "It never should have happened."

Why can't you explain to me how her loved ones could have helped her?

You seem to have lots of energy to criticize, yet don't ever seem to come up with any suggestions on how she could have been helped in February of 2009. 

Thank you. This is the one of my biggest questions. How else could Britney have been helped?

Britney didn’t seem to want *any* help. We have Sam Lutfi trying to “humanize” her to the paparazzi by constantly having her surrounded by them but the media is constantly tearing her apart. She tried to do a sit down tell all interview but it was an epic fail on all proportions (Matt Lauer). She couldn’t even go “okay let’s ignore my public life and only focus on the music” because....2007 VMAs.

Britney wasn’t taking initiative to have her life changed. Everyone is like “she could have gone to therapy!” Or “she should have gotten a life coach!” Like hello yes. That’s the point. She could have. She didn’t.

I’m not saying a conservatorship was the answer, especially one that turned into the way it did. But holy ****. She wasn’t having it from anyone but was in such distress. What was there to do?

[studlygeorge]

1 hour ago, DuranDuran said:

No, Britney should not have been placed under a temporary, much less a permanent Cship.  And it's a strange question about what her parents were supposed to do to help her, considering that her own parents had been setting her up for quite some time to put her under Cship. It was a planned trap with a PR campaign in the media against Britney. Instead of helping her, they deliberately made it worse at that time. *allegedly*

As for Sam... they could have requested a restraining order, if their allegations against him were true... and you keep mentioning that Sam confessed that he drugged her. Where did you read it? I know that it was Lynne's statement in the court documents, but in the court documents which Sam submitted, he did not admit it anywhere, at least in the documents that I read.

And, to be honest, I do not believe either Sam or Lynne, much less James, they are proved to be snakes. The only version of events that matters to me is Britney's...

Piggybacking off my previous post....this is very informative lol

[LordofTheMoodRing]

13 minutes ago, Steel Magnolia said:

If the State of California made permanent conservatorships for this type of situation illegal...

She would be freed. 

You are too funny. You are gonna have a hard time getting those new bills and rights changed with them slow blinks. And before Cali can do jack you gotta get the Supreme Court to change the federal laws and have a Senate vote. 
 

 

[Steel Magnolia]

4 minutes ago, LordofTheMoodRing said:

You are too funny. You are gonna have a hard time getting those new bills and rights changed with them slow blinks. And before Cali can do jack you gotta get the Supreme Court to change the federal laws and have a Senate vote. 
 

 

Change has to start somewhere.

Why not start with Britney's own fanbase?

We should begin developing a list of recommendations, using Britney's story as a case study...Write it up as an article, and shop it to the major media players.

Why not? 

[NotBuyingIt]

5 hours ago, Steel Magnolia said:

For those of you posting, "It never should have happened."

Why can't you explain to me how her loved ones could have helped her?

You seem to have lots of energy to criticize, yet don't ever seem to come up with any suggestions on how she could have been helped in February of 2009. 

Supported decision-making, which a woman with Down's Syndrome and her family established because they didn't want all of her rights to be taken away, but she does require assistance with major life decisions.

https://www.supporteddecisionmaking.org

Conservatorships are too hard to get out of. This was never a fair game.

[Steel Magnolia]

17 hours ago, studlygeorge said:

Thank you. This is the one of my biggest questions. How else could Britney have been helped?

Britney didn’t seem to want *any* help. We have Sam Lutfi trying to “humanize” her to the paparazzi by constantly having her surrounded by them but the media is constantly tearing her apart. She tried to do a sit down tell all interview but it was an epic fail on all proportions (Matt Lauer). She couldn’t even go “okay let’s ignore my public life and only focus on the music” because....2007 VMAs.

Britney wasn’t taking initiative to have her life changed. Everyone is like “she could have gone to therapy!” Or “she should have gotten a life coach!” Like hello yes. That’s the point. She could have. She didn’t.

I’m not saying a conservatorship was the answer, especially one that turned into the way it did. But holy ****. She wasn’t having it from anyone but was in such distress. What was there to do?

 

16 hours ago, NotBuyingIt said:

Supported decision-making, which a woman with Down's Syndrome and her family established because they didn't want all of her rights to be taken away, but she does require assistance with major life decisions.

https://www.supporteddecisionmaking.org

Conservatorships are too hard to get out of. This was never a fair game.

"She wasn't having it from anyone but was in such distress."

That's exactly why I'm saying that a temporary conservatorship should be an option.

There's a huge difference between someone with Down's Syndrome, who is likely very compliant, and someone like Britney with two toddlers, who has gone a year rejecting any kind of assistance, has isolated herself from family, has fired her security guards (meaning she has no physical protection from fans and stalkers), and is being drugged by a third-party. 

I haven't had time to read up on all of the alternatives that people are kindly posting in this thread, but my gut tells me she would have rejected Supported Decision Making, and any other alternative.

A temporary conservatorship wouldn't be hard to get out of — there would be a set end-date from the very beginning that all players would be aware of...Once that time ran out, the conservatorship would be over and done with, and then other options like Supported Decision Making would still be available to transition out of it.

[Steel Magnolia]

21 hours ago, nthenwkiss said:

a conservatorship should only be used if you are legit insane, like you forget that you have to poo and you pee on yourself and you forget to eat and lose weight because you do; you forget to take medication, you refuse to shower, you become a thread to you and others... none of that is britney - she was just heavily misunderstood.

There is photo evidence of her walking around in front of the paparazzi with blood soaking through her underwear because she wasn't aware that she had her own period...Sam Lutfi was crushing her anti-psychotic meds and putting them in her food because she was forgetting to take them...She was dirty and greasy and was forgetting to shower...She locked herself in the washroom three weeks earlier with Jayden...She was talking gibberish and with a British accent...There were reports at the time that there had been a suicide attempt.

All of that was captured by the paparazzi, so there is photo and video evidence of all of it (except the suicide attempt).

None of that warranted a 12-year conservatorship...But it did warrant a temporary intervention of some sort...And that intervention couldn't have come without the force of the law behind it.

[DuranDuran]

6 hours ago, Steel Magnolia said:

"She wasn't having it from anyone but was in such distress."

That's exactly why I'm saying that a temporary conservatorship should be an option.

There's a huge difference between someone with Down's Syndrome, who is likely very compliant, and someone like Britney with two toddlers, who has gone a year rejecting any kind of assistance, has isolated herself from family, has fired her security guards (meaning she has no physical protection from fans and stalkers), and is being drugged by a third-party. 

I haven't had time to read up on all of the alternatives that people are kindly posting in this thread, but my gut tells me she would have rejected Supported Decision Making, and any other alternative.

A temporary conservatorship wouldn't be hard to get out of — there would be a set end-date from the very beginning that all players would be aware of...Once that time ran out, the conservatorship would be over and done with, and then other options like Supported Decision Making would still be available to transition out of it.

But it's not true that she was not able to heed the advice.

1) Britney lived in a gated community with guards of its own.

2) Prior to her first 5150 hold, Britney took medication as should, and was under the supervision of a family care monitor, Robin Johnson, who did not find anything questioning in her behavior. That is, she was gradually improving in the eyes of the law, which didn't sit well with team con, imo. Therefore, they began to provoke her, which resulted in the first 5150 hold, Britney herself wrote that it was a setup + Robin said that everything went well that day, but before Britney had to return the children, someone called her and that conversation upset her very much. Also worth noting  that she was released the next day, instead of 3, and no ***** or alcohol was found in her, her boys were fine, not a single scratch were on them. 

But the second 5150 hold was much better planned. In January 2008 team con hired a psychiatrist, Deborah Nadel, to set Britney up, she was the one who ordered the second 5150 hold. So at that time whatever Brit did she was doomed. 

No one denies that she needed help. But she definitely didn't need Сship, temporary or not. Her behavior prior to first 5150 hold shows that Britney was able to heed the advice. She was not a lost case by any means. But the fact of the matter no one tried or wanted to help her.

3) I also had incidents with the menstrual cycle manifesting at the wrong time, thank god, I'm not a superstar who was being persecuted by the paparazzi ...

Edit:

Britney Spears visited psychiatrist, January 26, 2008

Britney Spears At Longs ***** with her Mom. January 29, 2008

According to Lynne's book, the plan to put Britney under Cship was already in motion at that time.

[DuranDuran]

On 3/30/2021 at 12:39 AM, Steel Magnolia said:

Did you notice when Lutfi last reared his head?

Quote

Yeah, the timing was sus... Lutfi is shady af... His appearance in the lives of several people was followed by an attempt to capture these people under the pretext of Cship...  Lindsay, Cortney, Amanda... kinda sus...

Because of this, personally, I am more inclined to believe that he was hired by Lou or ,maybe, by people who are behind Lou. But this does not negate the fact that there is a very high probability that Sam or/and Lou were also in cahoots with MVK, cuz he is clearly team Con

Look who else was involved. 

 

[Forever222]

She explains it really well @Steel Magnolia

[Steel Magnolia]

40 minutes ago, DuranDuran said:

Look who else was involved. 

 

WTF.

On a side note...

I'm not sure who Samuel Barth is, but how would he be able to afford a criminal defense attorney usually hired by millionaire celebrities?

Either way, Berk's hiring by Jamie is one of the shiftiest things of all of this.

This little piece of info just gives even more weight to my theories.

[Steel Magnolia]

5 hours ago, DuranDuran said:

But it's not true that she was not able to heed the advice.

1) Britney lived in a gated community with guards of its own.

2) Prior to her first 5150 hold, Britney took medication as should, and was under the supervision of a family care monitor, Robin Johnson, who did not find anything questioning in her behavior. That is, she was gradually improving in the eyes of the law, which didn't sit well with team con, imo. Therefore, they began to provoke her, which resulted in the first 5150 hold, Britney herself wrote that it was a setup + Robin said that everything went well that day, but before Britney had to return the children, someone called her and that conversation upset her very much. Also worth noting  that she was released the next day, instead of 3, and no ***** or alcohol was found in her, her boys were fine, not a single scratch were on them. 

But the second 5150 hold was much better planned. In January 2008 team con hired a psychiatrist, Deborah Nadel, to set Britney up, she was the one who ordered the second 5150 hold. So at that time whatever Brit did she was doomed. 

No one denies that she needed help. But she definitely didn't need Сship, temporary or not. Her behavior prior to first 5150 hold shows that Britney was able to heed the advice. She was not a lost case by any means. But the fact of the matter no one tried or wanted to help her.

3) I also had incidents with the menstrual cycle manifesting at the wrong time, thank god, I'm not a superstar who is being persecuted by the paparazzi ...

Edit:

Britney Spears visited psychiatrist, January 26, 2008

Britney Spears At Longs ***** with her Mom. January 29, 2008

According to Lynne's book, the plan to put Britney under Cship was already in motion at that time.

 

1) She may have lived in a gated community, but she was roaming the streets of LA on foot and was being swarmed by gangs of paparazzi and fans. We've all seen the videos, which are downright suffocating to watch.

2) It was Nadel's prescription that Lutfi was crushing...In her declaration against Lutfi, her mom names the medications:

"Sam told Jackie and me that he grinds up Britney's pills, which were on the counter and included Risperdol and Seroquel. He told us that he puts them in her food that that was the reason she had been quiet for the last three days (she had been sleeping.) He told us that the doctor who is treating her now is trying to get her into a sleep-induced coma so that they could then give her ***** to heal her brain."

Later in the document, she says, "I did not see Britney again until I arrived at her house on Wednesday night after Sam called me and told me to come to the house. When we arrived, Britney seemed subdued. The police arrived and took her to the Neuro Psychiatric Institute at UCLA ("NPI"). While at NPI, I l earned that Britney informed her doctor, Lee Sadja, MD, that she had also taken Aderol."

Do we know which date she started seeing Nadel? I know that X17 ran a story on it at a certain point — I remember Nadel being photographed on a park bench.

Either way, at a certain point (likely after starting to see Nadel) Britney wouldn't even attend her custody hearings, and at least once fled the scene due to what appeared to be an anxiety attack...It was around that time that it really started to seem that she was in dire straights.

I've been reading the links posted in this thread about Supported Decision Making, etc...If she wouldn't even attend a court hearing to try to win visitation rights with the boys back, how could she be expected to willingly commit to something like Supported Decision Making? She'd already spent over a year rejecting any kind of help being offered to her (evidenced by Felicia jumping ship in February of 2007, and who knows how else her mom tried to reach out over that year? We really have no idea what was offered to her leading up to rehab, let alone in the months leading up to the two 5150's.)

Whether it was a temporary conservatorship or a restraining order, I can't envision her and Lutfi being separated without the force of the law.

It's too bad they didn't attempt a restraining order against him first...but the fact that they didn't really says something, doesn't it?
 

[DuranDuran]

30 minutes ago, Steel Magnolia said:

Do we know which date she started seeing Nadel?

I read somewhere that Brit began to see her about a week or a week and a half before her second 5150 hold, but I don't remember the source where I read it

[Steel Magnolia]

40 minutes ago, DuranDuran said:

I read somewhere that Brit began to see her about a week or a week and a half before her second 5150 hold.

This is all I've been able to find so far...Same date as your post...

January 27, 2008.

"Will Britney agree to the court's forced psychological evaluations or will this be a one-time thing? And will Britney get the help she needs?"

https://www.x17online.com/2008/01/x17_xclusive_britney_visits_psychiatrist

She appeared to have stayed up for the next 60 hours without going to sleep.

And then we have this...

https://www.x17online.com/2008/01/x17_xclusive_britney_suicide_attempt

https://www.x17online.com/2008/01/britney_suicide_attempt_the_hours_before

https://www.x17online.com/2008/01/sam_says_everything_is_fine

https://www.x17online.com/2008/01/lynne_tells_x17_britneys_fine